Thursday, February 16, 2006

Regarding Rails Restrictions

The internet definitely gives a platform for people who don't know what they are talking about to make their opinion known. Unfortunately systems that rely exlusively on popularity (ahem digg, reddit) tend to give these people their limelight simply because they make such loud statements.

In particular I'm referring to this rant on the Joel On Software forums. Overhyping a product is just as bad as slandering it with false information, so I'm going to respond to this rant point by point, but I will apologize for my strident tone. I have to admit, I'm not really known for suffering fools gladly, and this guy really rubbed me the wrong way.

A little note before I get started. I have been a professional database developer since 1993, and I have worked with numerous enterprise level database systems and frameworks. I have worked with Rails for about 15 months and I'm now working on my fourth major project in Rails. You can view my commentary with that perspective.

"1. IT TAKES THE RELATIONAL OUT OF RELATIONAL DATABASE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM"

In this section the poster talks about how Rails isn't relational, and it just doesn't grok relational databases. His major point seems to be that Rails should be smart enough to look at your tables and infer the relationships based on the primary keys. First of all it's not clear when he thinks Rails should do this, is that when he's generating his models, or at runtime? Let's just assume he's not stupidly asking for a runtime performance graveyard like that, and he just wants it to happen when he's scaffolding out his models (see sidenote on scaffolding).

The problem with that type of introspection is easy to see on simple inspection. First, what if all of the tables you are joining to with your model don't exist? Should it re-inspect every table in the database every time you create a model? What happens if your naming convention isn't exactly how rails expects it (ie, some_descriptive_tag_table_name_id), the current system easily and expressively handles that situation. What if you have some special select logic that you need to do on your finds? Again the current relationship handles it very nicely. The current system has all the power and expressiveness you need to capture very complex relationships. It seems like he's really arguing that Rails should "just figure it out", which to me is a dubious claim to begin with.

The ranter then mentions something about not being able to leave the table, and Rails has taken a latex glove to his database schema. To be honest this entire section was very confusing and poorly worded, but he did make some relatively clear statements that were of course totally off base.

"There's still no excuse. Because Rails insists I name my foreign key columns table_id if I want to live the good life. When I do so, I shouldn't have to declar has_many and belongs_to."

Um...What? How about this:
belongs_to :user, :foreign_key => "user"

If you want to live the good life? What's that about? Is someone going to throw you in the river if you don't comply? Let me tell you something. Rails is very tolerant, and very nicely handles situations where people don't follow the standard. Personally I can't stand pluralized table names or using id as the primary key for my tables. So to live the good life do I have to do that? Hell no, I put these two settings in my environment.rb:
ActiveRecord::Base.primary_key_prefix_type = :table_name_with_underscore
ActiveRecord::Base.pluralize_table_names = false

at this point I now have the bliss of tablename_id as my primary keys, and I don't have to mess with any of the pluralized table nonsense. My model is named exactly the same as my table, so if I want an ORDER table I make an Order model, or if I do want to pluralize I name my table ORDERS and my model Orders. The point for me is that I don't have to worry about the pluralizer getting it right. In the context of this article, the point is that Rails supports this choice all the way throughout the system. Everywhere that it matters, the system just knows that I've made this choice and everything still works as if I were a normal Rails citizen. Pretty cool huh?

Ok, next the ranter goes off and starts talking about popups. To be honest, I have no clue what he was talking about here. I don't get too many popups at the command line, so I'm at a complete loss as to how to respond here. I'm going to chalk those comments up to either drugs, or complete cluelessness on his part.

So basically this entire point was complete and utter nonsense. This guy wants something that will go and do the work of figuring out what his foreign keys are for him. How does that translate to a restriction of Rails? Seriously, this guy should learn how to use the relationships in rails before he starts ranting about how bad they suck.

***Scaffolding Sidenote***
Ok I have to admit that I hate scaffolding. It was one of those things that got people interested in Rails, but in my world I never use scaffolding. Occasionally, when I just need a bunch of skeleton files I'll scaffold them out, but scaffolding is no more Rails programming than unlocking a car door is the essence of driving. Real true Ruby on Rails programming has almost nothing to do with scaffolding.
***End Scaffodling Sidenote***

"2. RAILS DOESN'T PLAY WELL. WITH ANYONE. NOT EVEN ITSELF."

"But do you remember that moment in the demo when the play turns ugly with a big ole error page? It's when he tried to update his db schema or model or something. It doesn't work because he has to reboot the webserver before those changes take effect. Which he says and moves on quickly."

Seriously, wtf? Did this dude actually write some code in Rails or did he watch the demo and assume that's how the system works? I've been working on the same system now since october and I've had to restart my web server less than 10 times. In fact the only time I've had to restart was when I changed the structure of things I had stored in session variables and I wanted to purge them. I probably didn't even have to restart the server then, but I figured I'd do it for good measure. When it comes to typical active development though, if you are running in development mode, you just don't have to restart that thing....*ever*. I add and remove tables, change the structure, add and remove models, change the assocations, etc, etc. I never have to restart the server in those cases, with the one exception noted above. Seriously this item makes me very seriously doubt the veracity of his claim that he has actually built an application in Rails.

Next he talks about how if you re-scaffold something it will overwrite your files. Which is true, *if*, when you hit the part that says "overwrite files (y/n/a)?" you hit a, or y repeatedly. Now look, Rails does make database programming easier, but it does help if you can use a computer and you understand basic prompts like "hey, you have some crap here, do you want me to overwrite it?".

Once again we have a complete rant section that isn't based on the Restrictions of Rails, but on the ranters own incompetence.

"3. YOU CAN'T READ THE FACKING MANUAL BECAUSE THERE IS NO FACKING MANUAL."

Wow, seriously this is such a load of crap. There are several good manuals written for Rails. Which you can buy from Amazon. The one written by the Pragmatic Programmers is $23 for a 450 page book. Apparently the fact that the book is over 200 pages is a huge problem for this dude, my advice, read the first 200 pages. In that time you'll have read enough information to be significantly farther along than you are now.

He also bashes on the api.rubyonrails.com, which to me is one of the best aspects of the Rails documentation. I don't know of any other language that has such complete documentation online.

Certainly documentation is difficult. It's often times hard to know where to start, or where to look, but everytime I've picked up a language, I head to the bookstore and buy a book that covers the topic I need to learn. If you are completely against buying books, well the problem isn't with the language, it's with your self imposed restrictions.

"4. RAILS ATE MY DATA, OR AT LEAST STOOD IDLY BY WHILE MY DATA WAS EATEN"

Again with the WTF? How is this even a rant about Rails? This guy is just boldly stating that he has no damn clue how to build software. Seriously, Rails has this whole wonderful thing called validations. If you want it to validate your data, you have to tell it to validate the data. Programming languages and frameworks don't write the software for you, they just expose features and functionality that allow you to easily write code. He then complains because Rails knows the database is only 40 characters and it should have checked the data first. The problem here is that most real database systems won't silently fail, so it's a massive waste of CPU to do a check that is completely useless in most cases. That's why you have to explicitly tell Rails to do the check, because it tries not to uselessly waste CPU cycles. Next.

"5. THE FIRST RULE OF RAILS IS: DO NOT TALK ABOUT RAILS' RULES!"

Every significant framework has rules, and lots of them. He complains that none of these rules are out there for people to read. As I said before, if he read the first 200 pages (since that is his limit) all of those rules would have been covered in great detail. If you fail to do even the most basic research, he is right, those rules would be frustrating and irritating if you just kept tripping over them. Again though, the stinging indictment is that he is lazy, not that the information isn't there, and there in abundance.

"6. THERE'S MORE THAN ONE PLACE TO SAY IT"

He is apparentely talking about Engines here. The last time I looked Engines were an add on to Rails, and they weren't part of the core system. Regardless of that, Engines are a way to allow you to build components to re-use across projects. Building systems that you expect to reuse does require a bit more effort than writing that code once, however again that isn't really a restriction of Rails, it's an arbitrary requirement of an add-on libary to Rails.

This entire rant was misguided, and I didn't feel like he made any actual good points. I am certainly not claiming that Rails is perfect, but if you want to fix something it definitely helps if you learn what you are talking about before you write up some long winded post exposing what an idiot you are.

180 Comments:

Blogger Torvid said...

"but if you want to fix something it definitely helps if you learn what you are talking about before you write up some long winded post exposing what an idiot you are."

HAHAHAHAHAH zing! Truly his rant was poorly written, and even with my limited knowledge of rails I could tell he was FoS.

12:48 PM  
Blogger Steve Barbour said...

If it makes you feel any better, I made it further through your response than I did through the original rant.

1:53 PM  
Blogger Jonathan said...

This is a really great article, I was a little worried after reading the rant about Rails as I have just ordered the Agile Dev book myself but this puts everything back into perspective. I am glad experienced developers give their time to explain what is fact and what is fiction. Nice work Zifus.

3:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To be hoenst I only glanced at the RoR api, but I know Java's and RoRs wasn't impressive at all. From the design of the page to the formating, to how much text is lumped together, it just looks really nasty.

That said its nice to know that the other guy was FoS and not an acutal knowledgable person on rails

7:32 PM  
Blogger Michael Sica said...

Damn straight. :)

7:35 PM  
Anonymous Ryan Christensen said...

Programming generators should be configurable and its nice to know the tools are there. However I stick to C#, C++, Java, maybe pHP because with those their are no rails. OR mappers work great if you design them if not it is a bit like third part controls, there is always a limitation somwhere that you may not like. I think Ruby is great but there are just too many rails in it, for quick web applications it is good and ajax mixed in. But when you truly want to not let a mapper dictate how you architect then you either have to go custom or build your own OR mapper to your liking. The mappers need to be flexible.

7:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, a focused and informed response to a mad rant.

I am impressed.

7:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sick of you Ruby on Rails fanboys

7:44 PM  
Anonymous Ryan Christensen said...

The bottom line with frameworks, no matter the language, is that they need to work for you and help. If RUby on Rails does this then its a great tool to the developer. Developers need to figure this out for themselves. With the way rails is tied to web 2.0 that is a dangerous way to mass market the language of RUby and the framework Rails, there have been many come and go when over hyped. PowerBuilder, Delphi, othters. Java seemed to live up to the hype likewise its clone C#. Why is this? flexibiilty? Imagination that comes with good tools? Who knows?

7:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RoR hasn't really reached for my attention the way other technologies have.

It sounds mighty interesting to read about though!

Both of you make good points and RoR makers should take what you both say to heart.

7:48 PM  
Blogger Nick Wilkens said...

Enjoyed the read..

7:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good reply! My reaction that he was FoS as I've read both the Ruby and Agile Rails books from PragProg and I've had no problems whatsoever.

Infact when I've had a problem they've been good resources. I guess he should have spent more time reading than ranting?

7:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmm listen ya'all, for less than this stupid comments on Joel On Software forums without tech proof, people in my country get killed.

7:54 PM  
Anonymous blblack said...

With regard to your response to his first rant:

It *is* possible to infer real relationships from a live, running database automatically during model construction (even without special column names), and it's even possible to in turn make this happen automatically when your model is first loaded.

I haven't seen anyone do it yet, but it's even feasible to keep up with a changing database schema at runtime with some periodic checking, at minimal performance cost. Automatic relationships might not always work out perfectly (especially with regard to naming them, as you mentioned re: pluralizing), but they can be good enough for most simple purposes.

Take a peek at perl's DBIx::Class, and the related SQL::Translator and ::Loader / ::Schema::Loader to see where others are going with this kind of thing. We can define a model as just a set of connection information and let it go automatic from there, with relationships and everything.

These are what some of us use in perl's Catalyst framework (which unlike RoR, for better or wose depending on your perspective, leaves you to pick and choose your own pluggable ORMs and Template systems and whatnot)

8:15 PM  
Blogger QuB 333 said...

I am in the process of writing my first application using Rails, and that earlier post had me slightly concerned and confused as to what I was doing. Was the bug in my code because I needed to restart the server every run?

No... hes just a nitwit.

Thanks for a well orchestrated and thoughtful response to a dumb post.

8:15 PM  
Blogger David said...

I really liked your post and had some of the same feelings you had when I read Joel's Rant. He could at least play around with rails for a bit before spewing out SHIT.

Joel is getting more annoying by the day.

8:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great response. Glad someone with actual knowledge of their topic set this one straight. It seems like people are looking for some code machine that automagically creates a web app from your thoughts, and that Rails has let them down.

8:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you RTFA, you'll see that the original ranter compliments Ruby on Rails while sarcastically airing what he considered nuisances...

[snip]
Rails lived up to most of the hype, but who wants to hear about that?

As an entitled American who contributed not one line of code to Rails and has used it for all of one project, I am of course brilliantly qualified to bitch about it.
[/snip]

Not a great article, not worth the digg.

8:54 PM  
Anonymous Pete said...

You badly misrepresented the guy's words regarding documentation. He was quite well aware that the pay-for dead-tree documentation existed, he just expected there to be something in the way of freely downloadable documentation (accessible from http://rubyonrails.org/docs). Something more than just the API documentation.

Seriously, there was more than enough in the guy's rant for you to correct :) without needing to misrepresent his words on documentation. In fact I think his rant-section on docs was one of those for which DHH admitted he had a point.

9:05 PM  
Blogger todd said...

I find this whole rant very similar to what I just went through at work... On the one hand we have a few zealot zope developers, who insist their technology is the greatest thing ever. I've been a long time php developer, but in novemeber I decided to give rails a try. One of my fellow co-workers was really excited about it, so we went about writing a demo using rails. In two weeks we had a very simple but cool demo up and running. I was most impressed at how little time we actually spend dealing with server code (the glue). Instead, most of our time was spent in the html/javascript and in filling our database with data. I was really pumped up. Interestingly enough in the process the zope guys were flipping out I even had my job threatened! The next month I was asked to rework the demo using zope. I wasn't too happy about this because the rails demo worked really well... Anyway, I went ahead and learned zope and started to rebuild the demo... This time it should be easier I figured because I had all the DB and Javascript worked out. To my disappointment I found zope to be a mess, difficult to connect to a database, no ORM, a confusing array of session options, and no real javascript... Anyways, in the end what upset me the most was these zealots, they never looked at my rails code. Instead, they blindly assume they know best... I always here a "ooh ruby what a silly language" and "I've programmed java before"

Anyways... I guess I should just feel sorry for these people.

9:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mediocre response. You only addressed the specific issues you could respond to and ignored a lot of the true arguments presented.

9:08 PM  
Blogger todd said...

"Mediocre response. You only addressed the specific issues you could respond to and ignored a lot of the true arguments presented."

Provide some examples dude, otherwise, I have to assume you're just trying to flame this guy!

9:09 PM  
Anonymous Chris Van Pelt said...

Thanks for the educated response. I just wanted to make sure and clear up one thing concerning restarting the server. If you modify anything that is loaded at runtime eg. (environment.rb or any libraries you may include) you need to restart the server for them to take effect, BFD.

I've been developing on rails for about 5 monthes now, and I'm in love with it. Yes, I'm a Rails fan boy and proud of it. Sit down and play with this slick ass framework and try digging deep into Prototype and Scriptaculous and your world will be changed atleast until the next greatest thing comes along...

9:09 PM  
Blogger todd said...

"For example, you didn't address "RAILS DOESN'T PLAY WELL. WITH ANYONE." instead you merely talked about reboots etc"

I don't think I understand, did you read this guys blog post? And for that matter did you read the blog post this post was about? The ranter talks about the server needing to be restarted in that section. In this blog post the poster addresses the issue saying the ranter is on crack, because if he had actually used rails he would know that changing the database scheme doesn't require a server restart!

9:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For example, you didn't address "RAILS DOESN'T PLAY WELL. WITH ANYONE." instead you merely talked about reboots etc

9:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Honestly, you should grow up. Ruby on Rails is more hype than anything. You can't disprove that, for every site running ruby on rails there is 1000 people who never programmed a line of ruby in their lives. So instead of ranting like a 6 year old boy just because some people critiqued your fanboy language, man up and take your losses.

Depakote

9:20 PM  
Anonymous a Hack said...

Yes, anonymous is right, but why let the facts get in the way of a nasty counterrant? ;->

The following indicates you simply did not read my post, because it is dead wrong:

"the poster talks about how Rails isn't relational"

Uh, no. I said relations are second class citizens and clearly mentioned has_many and belongs_to, so I'm not sure how you got the idea I've never set up associations.

I'm also quite familiar with rails' builtin validation methods, that's why I explicitly mention them (not that you actually read my rant). I just want them done automatically.

If you want to know how I want introspection done, you might check the example I cited, Class::DBI::Loader. But that might require actually reading my rant, or one of the replies from other people, or from me.

The blah_id part was not a criticism of the foreign key naming requirement (yes, I've used the :foreign_key => 'foo' argument to has_many etc). I was saying Rails can infer some associations from the names of the keys.

I am not going to get into a debate here over whether that's Correct, DHH obviously disagrees with me on this, and I already wrote about it in my follow up post.

I don't talk about popups, I talk about popup menus. I specifically state at the end of the relations section what I mean, clearly enough for most readers. After rails infers associations/relationships, I want it to turn a field like user_id into a popup with user names. I'm sure you'll object to this for various reasons, but that's what I meant.

You ask if I wrote some code in rails. This is answered in the first sentence of my post.

If you read my second post (before you posted a link to here on the same board), you'll see I admit completely misunderstanding the rebooting thing, which was the first one-third of my "doesn't play well" argument. Mea culpa.

Scaffold overwriting -- I already stated in my original post that I know it's supposed to prompt me. I guess you missed that too, or chose not to believe me.


Of the books you mention, none are on the rails documentation page. I already addressed why I don't like DHH's book -- length. We disagree on that, I don't see how that makes me an "idiot."

Did you even read the rules section? I don't complain about the rules, I just want them more upfront. This is among several points DHH agreed with me on. I did more than "basic research," I read all three tutorials linked from the ruby docs page, I read much of api.rubyonrails.com, and could not find these rules all in one place.

Your venom here is just weird. You take a rant where I call rails "brilliant" and say it mostly "lives up to the hype" and admit I'm being a little bitchy and you use that to launch a personal attack. This is precisely why I did not post under my real name.

I then write a followup post where I devote an entire section to how cool I think Rails is and how my original post should not be used to dismiss it, and you ignore that and hours later post a link here.

DHH himself called it a "good rant."

And he in the past said in an interview linked from his blog:

"I think that when you’re new somewhere, you have a real opportunity to inflect change. Because the longer you spend in a community the more experienced you get and the less likely it comes for you to see all the flaws. You just grow accustomed to them. So I think that we need newbies to tell us what’s wrong and give us the outside perspective. I think that was what I did with Rails: I gave the outside, web, perspective on Ruby, and that became Rails."

I was very careful in writing my rant to praise Rails, NOT launch an ad-hominem (sp?) attack. Your approach here is the opposite of that. Oh well -- I am pleased with the outpouring of positive comments from fellow Rails-ers who heard me and understood me.

9:21 PM  
Anonymous a Hack said...

PS the "anonymous" I was responding to was the one who wrote:

"If you RTFA, you'll see that the original ranter compliments Ruby on Rails while sarcastically airing what he considered nuisances... "

I guess it took me a while to compose my reply ;->

Take it easy, dude. I do hope you come around on my post. I'm not as evil as you think. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath waiting for your approval ;->

9:23 PM  
Blogger todd said...

"Honestly, you should grow up. Ruby on Rails is more hype than anything. You can't disprove that, for every site running ruby on rails there is 1000 people who never programmed a line of ruby in their lives. So instead of ranting like a 6 year old boy just because some people critiqued your fanboy language, man up and take your losses.

Depakote"

Wow dude, cry!

9:30 PM  
Anonymous strayneuron said...

+1 for Zifus...I hope Spolsky sticks to VB.NET

9:34 PM  
Anonymous nobodyman said...

Zifus, your rant exhibits all of the tell-tale signs of blind zealotry. You spend more time attacking joel than really addressing his points.

For someone who's been writing software since '93, it's unfortunate that your tone was so childlike.

10:10 PM  
Blogger Beowulf said...

a hack,

The point of my rant, and the reason for the venom is as I said. I don't think you really made any good points. Your prose was very difficult to read, and most of your observations came off as simple minded and uninformed. You sound to me like a Perl dude who did one very small "application" in Rails and decided it wasn't good. I did read DHH's response, and for the most part he explained that based on the design decisions behind rails, most of your points were off base. The only exception was the documentation, which he gave you a slight nod on. I stand by what I said, get the book.

I'm sure the biggest reason for the venom is that I'm tired of people like you getting some small taste of rails and making the assumption they know what's wrong with it, when in reality you simply don't know it very well, and therein lies 90% of your problems.

As I said, Rails isn't perfect, and there are numerous things I think should be fixed. However in my opinion the things you mentioned weren't actual problems with Rails, just symptoms of your own ignorance.

10:15 PM  
Anonymous a Hack said...

strayneuron and nobodyman, I am NOT Joel Spolsky or any other Joel. I posted my rant in a forum devoted, in theory, to the site/blog/essays Joel on Software, that's the only reason the word "Joel" was anywhere near my rant.

Beowulf, it's too bad you did not understand my post or fully read it, but it's inevitable not everyone was going to hear to me, especially as the number of readers climbed. I even disagree with a number of people who praised me. Such is life!

All the best

10:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most of his rant is solved in Java. Hibernate/EJB3 provides TRUE O/R mapping not to mention the RAD tools that match functionality with Rails. Java plays better with others and has better-wider documentation and clearly defined rules. The only advantage in Rails is fast deployment (it exists in Java if you choose to use something like velocity etc...) but that is also the problem in rails since fast deployment doesn't always work where Java's clear deployment boundry works every time in live systems.

12:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dude zifus,

cool your jets, man. 'a hack' writes a self-acknowleged rant as a new RoR developer and manages to praise it in the process. he exposes some nievete, but owns up to it later on, and in general makes some well-written, decent points about some frustrations that other developers who haven't been working with RoR "for 15 months" seem to share (right or wrong). he even comes back here to respond to you in a fair, evenheaded manner.

what's with the insecure broadsides? calling the guy an idiot, is that really needed? it's that sort of obsessive adoration and defensiveness that turns other "enterprise developers" (not since '93 in my case, but for nearly as long and for higher traffic sites, i assure you) away from RoR and other du-jour projects.

no platform will be perfect for everyone. faults will be- and should be- found with any web stack. that's the way it is. while i personally don't like using full-stack platforms and am most comfortable in mod_perl or using python's asynchronous functions, i certainly don't disparage developers who use (and often can understand their passion for) higher abstractions like django, ror, php, anything in the java universe, or whatever else it is that gets their job done. nor do i pay much mind when people rant agsinst a technology i appreciate- it pays to remain objective enough to see from where their frustrations stem (or to be able to write them off as cranks if they're incoherenly babbling).

what counts in the end are stable, scalable, fast, flexible systems- which are much more a function of developer skill and experience than programming language or web framework.

3:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow! What did it take, a day for you to write all this stuff up?

Man! Do you have a job at all?!? Stop worrying abt trivial sheeyat like this and do something productive.

Cobol day before, Java yesterday and today, RoR tomorrow, a-yet-to-be-born-tool the day after.

Geez! Get a life people!

3:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I really don't get it.
I don't understand how people can complain about documentation. Are these people stupid? I've managed to learn ROR in one week and I'm fresh out of college with little programming experience. It's the easiest thing i've ever learnt!
It's almost too easy. It actually reassures me to think that some other people are having difficulties. I don't get it though.

If i have a problem i look at the book or go to http://ruby-forum.com/forum/3
, post a message, and get a reply usually within half an hour.

Rails is soooo easy.

4:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fantastic response to that rant. I'd stumbled across it on Digg and just hoped that some level-headed person like yourself could respond to it intelligently.

Cheers,
Gustave

4:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it interesrting that TurboGears fixes many of the problem raised. It's a RoR for Python. Still missing a few pieces of RoR functionality, but it's almost there, and it has some advantage over RoR. Check it out.

6:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it interesrting that TurboGears fixes many of the problem raised. It's a RoR for Python. Still missing a few pieces of RoR functionality, but it's almost there, and it has some advantage over RoR. Check it out.

6:04 AM  
Anonymous Josh said...

I haven't used Rails before, but the rant that inspired this post actually made me more interested. It's good to hear ah honest appraisal occasionally.

This post, however, stinks of someone who is offended that not everyone likes his favourite system. It isn't clever and it isn't particularly insightful. You admit that you don't understand what the original author was saying and then take every opportunity to attack the author, rather than his article.

If there was value in this post then I missed it while trying to avoid all of the juvenile comments.

6:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I gave up reading *your* rant, about half way through. You may have valid points, but by:

a) Missing many valid points in the original rant (someone who will dismiss constructive criticism just because it's criticism isn't showing much intelligence) leads me to question the validity of your own.

b) Personally attacking someone (you've called Joel several names and questioned everything about him, except maybe his religion) is a sign of immaturity. And these attacks leave me really wondering about your knowledge, since Joel is a well known and respected Blogger/developer. At the beginning of his rant he did admit his exposure to Rails was small, and so suspect, so many of his complaints may well be invalid (in fact, I *know* that some are). But your attacking him personally makes you look bad, not the other way around.

7:54 AM  
Blogger Last Obelus said...

I really hope that the rails team never decides to add introspection of relations.

It will cause more trouble than it could ever save. Specifying a relation is 1 or 2 lines. And it's not mindless code, like attributes, which are great to have introspected -- it's fundamental code. If it's magic, you can't look at the model code and understand the app, you have to look at the db schema and understand it via keys. Bah.

People who want the connections between entities to be magically generated from the db schema are probably simply not experienced to understand why that would be a quagmire, and get in your way more than the time it saves to type has_one, belongs_to etc.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I enyoyed both articles, the Joel's one because it really made me laugh a lot, it was fun. This one becaouse it was an elaborated response that helped me to avoid misunderstandings of Rails, as I am very new to it.

Thank you guys!

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Blogger issue9mm said...

I'm simply amazed at how ridiculously spiteful and off-base this entire post is, and that it was able to garner any support whatsoever.

The original rant had nowhere near this level of hatred, and was in fact posted by a self-professed newbie to the language. If this is how the newbies get treated in the RoR camp, it's no small mystery what will come of an otherwise brilliant framework.

So yeah, the original ranter made a few mistakes, and maybe even a few bad assumptions, but he owned up to them, and never proclaimed to know any better. Meanwhile, this rant is akin to that of a third-grade whose favorite toy was just confiscated by the teacher.

Grow the hell up.

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"If this is how the newbies get treated in the RoR camp, it's no small mystery what will come of an otherwise brilliant framework."

now everyone's getting silly.

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Anonymous Cristian Vat said...

I think some of these comments on Joel's rant are too much..
I really don't see any reason for comparing frameworks or saying which one has something better...these are already in the framework manuals/faqs/whatever.

However...an article where you point out what's wrong/buggy and what can be improved in a framework, that's a really good article.

I personally like the idea of Rails, but I also want to know its limitations and what should be improved in it..for that..thanks a lot to Joel for a good article.

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How do you attract people to your Web site/blog?

Ask Joel, he's got a few tricks up his sleeve, including a perfectly well-placed rant about a very popular piece of software/framework.

We see that all the time in newspaper editorials and Howard Stern does it (did it?) too, and we keep reading them.

"If we build it, they will come."

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I love Ruby, very concise and powerful and TRULY object-oriented (more OO than Java!).
Actully, Ruby on Rails is not required to have job done, if only you don't mind to write your own framework in Ruby.

And this particular framework, Ruby on Rails, is the best ever.
Don't be fooled by the author's young years, he is very mature person, gifted and inspired by God (I truly believe).

It is funny to read that Ruby on Rails will not live longer its hype. It ALREADY impacted very positively Java community, PHP and even C#.NET communities, which started to create something similar. Still, they have not such powerful basis, as Ruby language.

I can understand the frustration if you invest A LOT OF time and efforts into "wrong" direction (like I did): Java, .NET etc.
But let's be realists.
There is nothing better on the market for Web development right now.
Just use this leverage, fools!!! Don't waste your time and our time.
We need to be successful, we're not zealots, and we have EXPERIENCE to compare and make up our minds.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I read the original article/rant and actually decided to take a look at RoR. I originally heard about RoR and looked at the site, took a look at the screencast, and it turned me off. Then I came accross TurboGears (Python) and the screencast there got me sold. But since I know PHP decided to look for a PHP based one. Found finally symfony (PHP) and been playing with it (a couple weeks).

And by the way, yep, read from top to bottom the initial rant, and found it pretty good and nice criticism that brought lots of clarifications from people who obviously know. I also read all this rant. Zifus, what an idiot you are.

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