Thursday, December 08, 2005

Ruby on Rails vs Python Web Frameworks

O'Reilly has posted an interesting factoid. For the first time ever, Ruby book sales have surpassed Python book sales. In the article he also names Rails as the primary catalyst for Ruby's massive growth in popularity. Then he briefly discusses Python's attempt to respond to Rails.

I don't believe Python will be able to catch up to let alone surpass Rails in terms of popularity for a few reasons. By way of background, I have programmed professionally in Python for 3 years, and have been programming as a career for about 13 years now. I have tried a great number of the various web frameworks ASP, ASP/MTS/COM (ugh!), PHP, J2EE, ASP.NET (C#), Cold Fusion, Zope, mod_python, Twisted, Ruby on Rails. I spent significantly more time in some frameworks than others, but I never really *loved* any of them until Rails. In fact J2EE and ASP.NET were so bad in my opinion that I gave up entirely on web programming for a few years and just wrote python scripts to crunch data.

After working with Python for a few years I felt like I was ready to venture back into the world of Web Systems. I thought Python would be the ideal language to use because of it's flexibility and general cleanliness. I thought because Python had a relatively active community I would be able to find a really nice Web Framework to use. However after trying numerous frameworks, I came away with the following conclusion: Python sucks for the web.

The biggest problem for Python on the web is the same thing that makes Python so clean in the first place, significant whitespace. The second biggest problem Python programmers face is the mindset of the Python community, which is that there should be only one way to do things. The "one way to do things" mantra certainly seems nice to someone coming from Perl, but the general inflexibility of this rule began to wear on me after a while. It started to feel like I was using tools that didn't quite match the job. The quintessential example of this inflexibility is the refusal of the python core team to add a case statement to the language. There are numerous cited reasons, but the net effect is you have to use rather ugly nested if / else statements in the place of a well designed case statement. While that mindset may be good for a niche group, most mainstream programmers tend to prefer practical flexibility to dogmatic adherence to aesthetics.

Significant whitespace in your code can be a beautiful and readable thing if you work in a relatively homogenous environment. It's definitely a pain if you have to merge code written by someone else, in a different environment, into yours (especially when they use tabs, or 3 space indents instead of 4). That problem is severely compounded when it comes to web programming. It's so serious in fact, that when it comes to templating, virtually all python web frameworks use some other language to do the templating. Primarily they use Kid and CherryPy. Both of those templating languages grated on me. I wanted something more consistent, more elegantly designed, and definitely something that was better integrated.

Then I came to Rails and my first serious introduction to Ruby. Let me tell you, both Ruby and Rails knocked my socks off. The beauty, simplicity, and power of Rails is rooted in something deep within Ruby itself. Despite the claim that Ruby has weird syntax, I found it's syntax to be very clean and straightforward. As far as languages with syntax go, I would say Ruby has just the right operators in just the right places, which in my opinion make programs very readable.

Something that definitely struck me while using Rails was just how much Ruby is used. It is used absolutely everywhere, to a degree that I have never seen in any other language. Whereas with Python you have to learn another entire mini-language to do web programming, with Ruby I could use the full power and expressiveness inside the .rthml file just as well as I could within the .rb files. Instead of finding some obscure tool and trying to get it setup and installed and working with my Python Web Framework, with Ruby I could just use RubyGems to automatically download and install the latest version of whatever item I needed. It's literally as easy as gem install rails to download and install Ruby on Rails. When it comes to testing my application, Ruby comes with an incredibly powerful tool called Rake. Rake is essentially a build tool similar in concept to Make, but it allows you to express everything in Ruby. Rake is so powerful in fact that deploying to your production server has been canonized into a set of Rake tasks known as SwitchTower (once again included with Rails). With SwitchTower you can deploy effortlessly with rake deploy.

There are numerous things that I could mention about Ruby on Rails that are better than what I've seen in other frameworks. But instead of a laundry list of things that you may or may not like I'll leave you with this comparison. In terms of design, Windows is to the Mac as Python Frameworks are to Ruby on Rails. Windows is a powerful operating system, and you can kind of get it working most of the time. But if you use it a lot, there are things you will find frustrating and poorly designed. Whereas the Mac is a beautifully designed and tremendously well thought out system. The most common description is that it just works. So too with Ruby on Rails, from top to bottom, it just works.

On his blog, Aaron Schwartz, while discussing the Reddit re-write, said he created web.py because all of the other Python web frameworks suck. I agree with his assessment, if not with his conclusion. The Python frameworks don't suck because the people who wrote them are bad programmers. They suck because they are trying to build a framework to solve a problem in an environment that Python is fundamentally not suited for.

Python is a great language in and of itself, and there are numerous things it is well suited to, web programming just isn't one of them. If you are serious about building web applications, I strongly suggest you take a good look at the benefits and productivity offered by Ruby on Rails, I can almost guarantee your competitors will.

286 Comments:

Anonymous Craig said...

First of all how does the fact that some people can't synchronize their code properly make Python unsuitable for web programming? This "problem" as you conceive it, ignoring tabnanny for the moment, is completely orthogonal to the practice of web programming. In fact if anything web programming would be more condusive to whitespace. Ever notice how <p>hello world</p> and <p>hello     world</p> look the same in rendered HTML, one with a single space between words and the other with many, and how we have the   entity character?

The 3 space indent vs. 4 space indent aren't ambiguous, they're completely different; one representing 3 levels of indents, the other representing 4. Messing this up is a programmers problem, and seldom ever becomes a problem because the indentation simply has to be aligned for that block. You can use one space indents for one block, and a tab indent for the next block, and 3 spaces to indent the next block with a problem, they just need to line up. In Python a tab is 8 levels of indents, regardless of what the tabstop in your editor is set to.

It's also completely off base to say that templating languages don't use Python syntax because of a problem with the language. This is because the needs of a templating language are quite different from those of the language used to write the application logic that drives those templates. Ignoring, again, the obvious examples such as PSP that allow you to write templates using the Python language, this impetus mismatch is the reason that some people have implemented templating language. Many of these templating systems strive to seperate logic from presentation, which is a noble goal. Some are designed to be easily usable for web designers, who simply need to have data inserted in to their HTML pages and don't have the inclination to learn a complete programming language, even one as intuitive and easy as Python, to do so. The fundamental problem is that you're trying to stick CODE into HTML. S-expressions in Python are as good as any templating system, if that's what you want to use.

You're right, the Python web framework landscape is seriously fragmented, but not
because of Python. The cornucopia of frameworks that have sprung up is a hallmark of Python's popularity. It's really silly to say that "all python web frameworks suck" as well. Sure, some of them may suck, but you may just not *like* how some of the web frameworks work. Many of them differ greatly sylistically, and are designed for different kinds of web applications and the environments they work in. Given how easy it is to write a web framework if a programmer doesn't like a framework their only recourse is to use a different one or write their own. The motto is "there is one right way to do something." In this instance the right way for one person or application might not be the right way for another.

The reason that Ruby on Rails became so popular, other than the simple hype, is because it worked well enough and everybody jumped on the bandwagon. No Python web programming framework managed to garner enough hype to become the defacto standard, and that's it.

4:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the net effect is you have to use rather ugly nested if / else statements in the place of a well designed case statement

You know about elif, right? That makes nesting unnecessary, at least...

6:23 PM  
Blogger Beowulf said...

Craig I'm trying to understand the points you made. In your first paragraph you talk about how white space on the web is not significant, yet somehow you find that model supported by significant whitespace in python? The two models are not complementary to each other. Each an every whitespace in Python is not just important but critical, whereas on the web whitespace is generally ignored except for a single space.

In your second paragraph you completely failed to grasp my point. 3 vs 4 spaces *is* totally different in python. If you only ever use code you personally wrote this is no problem, however try grabbing a code snippet from the web. You have no guarantees that it will be formatted the same as your code, and unfortunately you can't always immediately tell. It's especially fun when the code you get uses tabs and yours uses spaces, but they still line up perfectly. This can be worked around, however it does cause problems.

The reasons that Python Web frameworks don't use Python is precisely because Python isn't good at templating. It can be done, but it's significantly more work than doing it in another language. It would be very difficult to build a page with server side Python that generated HTML output. It could be done with all triple quoted strings, but it would definitely be more cumbersome than the exact same templating in a language with delimeters other than whitespace. When it comes to these types of things, it's not wheter it can be done, but whether it can be done efficiently. In Python it just isn't efficient.

Personally I think it is an utter cop out to claim that something became big because of "the hype". That's simply an excuse for people to blame success on luck rather than looking directly at the issue and making a truthful assessment.

The reason there was never any hype about the Python web frameworks was simply that none of them were any good. It was easier and less troublesome to create a web page in PHP than it was to set up all the different pieces required to make Python work for the web.

Python does plenty of things well, it is a great all purpose language. In fact it's excellent at parsing and processing HTML, it's simply no good at generating it.

Why is it that people take such offense to someone saying that a language isn't good at a specific task? Would people be offended if I wrote an article that said hammers weren't good at tightening bolts? It is important to understand where a language fits into the eco-system and what tasks it is and is not good at. I'm not saying Python isn't a great language, it is. It just isn't good as a Web framework.

6:44 PM  
Blogger Beowulf said...

Anonymous, yes I'm fully aware of elif, however it some cases using the if statement requires you to continuously recompare a variable explicitly. Such as:

if a == 'val1':
pass
elif a == 'val2':
pass
elif a == 'val3:
pass
else:
pass

(sorry this python code wouldn't work because the web messes with the whitespacing)

This type of logic is expressed more clearly as a switch statement. The nice thing about a switch statement is that nearly all programmers understand the idiom, whereas some of the other methods (ie using a dictionary) are not as idiomatically common.

6:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally I've found Python with CherryPy to be very useful for simple webpages for in-house use in cases where Ruby on Rails would be overkill.

For example, I use a simple home-brewed templating language inside a CherryPy webpage to replicate lines with a list of values. This is very useful for pulling data off an SQL server.

9:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I use a simple home-brewed templating language inside a CherryPy webpage to replicate lines with a list of values.

But you freaking had to homebrew a templating language because something like Ruby's erb in Python would be impossible (or at least very difficult and not at all pleasing on the eyes). These Python folk just don't seem to get it.

11:35 PM  
Anonymous Petko Petkov said...

Ok, very interesting article but I still don't understand why everybody is flipping for Ruby or Ruby on Rails. Both Python and Rails are general-purpose languages and both of them are just tools. This is not a beauty contest.

I don't agree with the fact that Ruby on Rails is so great because the Ruby language is used everywhere. I believe that actually this is a disadvantage. As you said the Web is quite different environment but having your own Controllers and Models, written anyway in Ruby, and then having the entire template written in Ruby as well,.. Well, I find it silly for two main reasons: security and separation of concern. Embedding Ruby code in your template is nothing more but unnecessary redundancy. PHP is quite insecure language, so don’t use RHTML. Replace it Amrita.

I am security professional not a web developer but I have to say that during my test I came to some very good conclusions about what web frameworks should look like. I am python programmer but I am not saying that Python is the best tool ever, couse it is not. Python has its disadvantages and ruby has some too. Both of them fit into different categories and can be used for different tasks. Look at it this way. Some constructions in the Arabic language are so beautiful and have such deep meaning. Maybe with one word we can say a lot of stuff. But because some people can do this with the Arabic language, this doesn't mean that we have to make the English language the same. There is no place for competition because they are incomparable.

BTW, I am a ruby programmer as well, although I am writing most of my stuff in Python and I know C, C++, Perl, etc. too and I use them when it is necessary. And I am not against Ruby because Metasploit will be rewritten in Ruby so I will use it a lot in the future. I am a bit disappointed because I see that most web developers still cannot get the point. Tools are tools and ruby wont make your life easier, because you might end up doing some stuff that are completely inconvenient for Ruby.

This is what I think in my humble opinion.

1:55 AM  
Blogger Kartik Vaddadi said...

> ...virtually all python web frameworks use some other language to do the templating. Primarily they use Kid and CherryPy.

If I'm not wrong, CherryPy is a framework for HTTP servers and not a templating language.

2:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know Ruby, Python, and Perl well. I read through the rails book and had a look at some of popular Python frameworks. I settled on Catalyst, which I highly recommend. I'm not sure why the limelight has switched away from Perl lately --- no other language has anything comparable to CPAN, and Perl supports a good range of programming styles. It support functional programming better than Python in fact. You can write good clean code in Perl, Perl Best Practices will show you how.

Regards

5:25 AM  
Anonymous Ben Bangert said...

I was just saying on my blog the other day how Ruby folks claiming Python sucks for DSL (Domain Specific Languages) are a bit off. Now this claim about Python being un-suitable... it reads like a joke but I get the impression its actually serious.

For supposedly using Python for "years", no one ever told you to use 4 spaces? It's in most every book, the guidelines, etc. It's extremely rare to come across a released Python package not using 4 spaces. Whitespace just isn't an issue.

You obviously didn't do any checking around at all regarding template langauges, as Kartik mentioned, CherryPy is NOT a template language. Also, some Python template languages do use Python syntax in the template, like Myghty.

Python programmers do not "generally use Kid", that's absurd and truly reflects lack of knowledge about Python web programming. TurboGears is the largest Python web framework using Kid, so Kid is being used a lot more nowadays. Django has its own template language, there's Cheetah (very widely used), Myghty, and more I'm likely not aware of. Zope uses a different template language called ZPT and has TAL.

Compare this erb snippet:
<% for user in @users %>
<%= user.name %>
<% end %>

to Myghty:
% for user in users:
<% user.name %>
% #endfor

Control statements go straight out preceded by a %, though you can override the lexer if you wanted to. The whitespace problem is taken care of by using a comment to close the indentation, its not a big deal, and I have massive templates that never run into that problem.

If you're serious about Python, do your homework next time before making such bizarre and uninformed claims.

8:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8:49 AM  
Anonymous Jason Huggins said...

It's about time the Rubyists started picking on Python. Picking on Java, C#, and PHP was just too easy and way boring. Picking on Python, well now... bring it on... now that's a fight worth watching! :-)

> The biggest problem for Python on the web is the same thing that makes
> Python so clean in the first place, significant whitespace.

If you're going to pick on Python, the white space argument is pretty lame. I would focus my energy on the Python community's lack of consensus and standards for build tools (Rake vs A-A-P and Scons and POPS (plain old python script)), documentation tools (RDoc vs PyDoc, EpyDoc, and Pudge), unit testing libraries (test::unit vs unittest, py.test, doctest, testgears) and web frameworks (rails vs twisted, zope, webmodules, cherrypy, subway, turbogears, django, webware, quixote, aquarium, etc.).. But whitespace!? Give me a break! Complaining about Python's whitespace is a nice little red flag for saying "Hey, look, I'm an idiot!"

If whitespace was truly the problem with Python, are there examples, anecdotal stories, or evidence? Just asserting it doesn't make it true. I use Python in lots of production web apps. It might suck for lots of reasons, but "significant whitespace" is not one them. If a particular framework sucks, it's because the framework sucks, not the core language. Also, Python works just fine in HTML templates... check out http://www.myghty.org/examples/. The fact that many frameworks don't use Python in their templates is not because Python sucks... it's because they had different design goals. The designers of ZPT, the template language in Zope, wanted to more cleanly separate out code from presentation. (http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-March/033834.html) I think ZPT turned out pretty crappy to use, but the fact that it doesn't use raw Python was a voluntary design choice, not a limitation of the language. Argue that Python developers made choices that turned out to be bad! But don't argue that Python made them make those bad choices. The fact that not too many people know about Myghty is a marketing and propaganda problem, not a technology one.

And you know, SQL isn't that hot for HTML templating, conditionals and looping programming constructs... Wow, SQL totally sucks for the web... now I'm definitely not going to use SQL for the web ever again!

> The second biggest problem Python programmers face is the mindset of the Python
> community, which is that there should be only one way to do things.
> The "one way to do things" mantra certainly seems nice to someone
> coming from Perl, but the general inflexibility of this rule began to
> wear on me after a while. It started to feel like I was using tools
> that didn't quite match the job.

The official Python philosophy is "There should be one -- and preferably only one -- obvious way to do it." (taken from http://www.python.org/dev/culture.html)
Trying to have one obvious way to do it discourages "cleverness" in code. Recursion is clever, but it's not obvious... Looping is obvious, so that's encouraged. You're not labeled an outcast if you don't do something the "obvious" way in Python... but you'll be made fun of when other Pythonistas look at your code and try to extend it, fix it, or help document it. What is wrong with that? Having one obvious way to do something prevents stupid fights like the "where to put the curly braces" in most other languages. Again, there is not one obvious way to put together a web framework in Python so that's worth blasting... But the principle of "one obvious way" is not to blame, in fact... this is why I think Rails is more "pythonic" than Python... Rails is the "one obvious way" to do web apps in Ruby. Rails has co-opted Python's design goal and then blasts Python for having that same goal? Lame. Blasting Python for not living up to its goal?... Fair. (But that's not what you argued.)


> The quintessential example of this
> inflexibility is the refusal of the python core team to add a case
> statement to the language. There are numerous cited reasons, but the
> net effect is you have to use rather ugly nested if / else statements
> in the place of a well designed case statement.

Bzzzt... That's just flat out ignorant. That's because there is a better way in Python. Just because a syntax doesn't match one to one in Python to Java, Perl, or Ruby, that doesn't mean Python sucks. Hash tables (Python calls them 'dictionaries') are the equivalent to case/switch statements. This is further explained here:
http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html

Again, if I were to pick on Python, I would point out the discrepancy between "one obvious way to do it" at the language level, and the billion and one ways to do it at the library (builds, tests, docs, web) level.

Rantfully yours,
-Jason

P.S. I love Rails, the framework. But I can't stand Rails, the community FUD machine.

10:34 AM  
Blogger Beowulf said...

Ben,

Next time try reading the article before you comment on it. I didn't make the claim that Python sucks for creating DSLs, I said it's not good as a templating language.

Additionally I don't use three spaces, I use four as is the standard. The simple fact that it's so damn hard for people to even read and understand my point underscores what a pain in the ass sensitive whitespace is.

I did mean to say Cheatah and not CherryPy, that was a mistake in the article.

Myghty is not python, python does not have ending block delimiters. Myghty might look like python, and try to emulate it, but you still have to use something different, and to me, those comment ending delimiters are very ugly.

To date, I haven't seen any actual example of using python as a templating language. It simply isn't feasible.

10:56 AM  
Blogger Beowulf said...

Jason, feel free to write your own article on the topic. Despite your claims, whitespace is very relevant if you are trying to use python as a templating language on the web. Myghty is not Python. It's similar, but if you start adding ending delimiters you are no longer using python. Instead of the ugly comment end delimeters, why not use a language like ruby that has the delimeters built in? I didn't say those templating languages don't work, I said I didn't like any of them. I'd rather use something that is more consistent and more elegant when it comes to solving that problem. Ruby definitely beats Python there.

I knew someone would trot out the Python example of using a dictionary instead of a case statement. If you look above, I even mentioned it. A dictionary is simply not a suitable replacement for a case statement. Jason, why don't you post the equivalent Python code for the case statement I posted above? I think the dictionary as a case statement is a ridiculous stance. It's a clunky solution to a simple problem, and it smacks of the kind of rigid adherence to pointless aesthetics that I mentioned before.

11:03 AM  
Anonymous Ben Bangert said...

> Next time try reading the article before you
> comment on it. I didn't make the claim that
> Python sucks for creating DSLs, I said it's not
> good as a templating language.

I know, I was giving an example of a different thing someone in the Ruby community said that was clearly uninformed.

The Comment ending delimiters are more minimal than the typing you do to close the end block in erb. Myghty templates are parsed directly to Python byte code.

You're still very out of touch with Python web programming if you think that "generally" the Python web world uses Kid. Before TurboGears, a few months ago, hardly anyone even knew Kid existed.

The DSL thing does apply here though, because you're making the very bizarre case that you'd want to program your HTML templates directly in a programming language.

Ruby people are very right about making DSL's for these tasks, a template language DESIGNED for HTML templates is going to blow away any general purpose programming language attempting to do the same.

This is the big advantage of DSL's. The other large advantage is that its possible to implement security mechanisms so that you can expose templating to an end user. ERb suffers in this respect, so there's Liquid (http://home.leetsoft.com/liquid) which remedies this aspect.

The whole point of Domain Specific Languages is to have something tailored to the task at hand. Ruby, Python, Lisp, etc. are not going to be as powerful for HTML templating as a template language designed for the task.

Myghty lets you get as close to normal Python syntax as possible, while still providing powerful DSL constructs on top of it. As for programming directly in HTML, why would you want something less powerful than a Domain Specific Langauge built for templates??

11:29 AM  
Anonymous Jason Huggins said...

After reading this page regarding switch statements (http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2004/05/07/switch) I'm left thinking it's a religious war where everyone is right. The Python devs have good reasons for leaving it out, the rest of the planet has good reasons for wanting it in. Same conclusion regarding templating. Personally, I don't like any server side templating solution. Give me HTML and JavaScript and something like TiddlyWiki or TrimPath and I'm happy. Again, a personal preference, but I don't assert server-side templates categorically suck because of this preference. The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree. For every nit to pick in Python, I can find one in Ruby... (Another worthy challenge and blog post, no doubt!) So at best, we're at a stalemate. Now Python/Ruby vs Java/C#/PHP... that's no contest-- Java, C#, PHP truly do suck compared to Ruby and Python... and that's something we can all agree on. :-)

11:51 AM  
Anonymous Sam Stephenson said...

Rails has co-opted Python's design goal and then blasts Python for having that same goal? Lame.

Opinions belong at the framework level, not the language level.

5:18 PM  
Anonymous Links said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7:43 PM  
Anonymous Article said...

Content is king they say yet when I use search phrases such as Article I find that seeking knowledge still captures me so when people talk about Article just remeber this is still the Information Super Highway.

5:07 AM  
Blogger mike bayer said...

Myghty is not python, python does not have ending block delimiters. Myghty might look like python, and try to emulate it, but you still have to use something different, and to me, those comment ending delimiters are very ugly.

This is completely incorrect. The code you put in Myghty is *directly* python, and is compiled directly to a Python module. You are talking about a single additional percent sign, "%", which solves the entire issue your whole entry raises, and somehow concluding, "now its not python".

12:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The guy who wrote Ruby did so because he didn't like the C-spaghetti source code that generates Python.

Both Ruby and Python suffer from an inherent design defect -- Socialist-oriented 'class based thinking' that is pushed by the High Priests of Academia.

Interpreter/object loops (Python, Ruby, et. al) that require you to think in classes, makes modeling the real world impossible.

The primary agenda of the Socialist is to divvy up humans into bivalent classes and then reward those who support the Socialist agenda by their designated class. Socialist High Priests simply conjure up classes.

However, within the real world, no classes exist. Each thing you experience is just that, a unique thing. Some things have more of what makes one thing a thing, than other things. We call those things the "ideal form" of a thing.

An eagle is a bird and a penguin is a bird, but sure doesn't act like one.

A socialist wants you to think that an eagle is a 'kingdom/phyllum/order/class/genus/species' type thing. However, ask any child and they'll say, an eagle is a bird and a penguin is an animal that looks like a bird, but swims. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE.

In life, categories exist on-the-fly only, which helps humans decide quickly based upon past experience.

Classifying humans arbitrarily based upon skin color, internalized genitals, heterophobic homosexist world view or anything else and then having persons of these classes race (socialist doctrine of racism) to get the spoils of stolen cash (income taxes) from unorganized commoners is wrong.

So too is any logic based upon class hierarchies and inheritance.

The problem is not "whitespace" handling, etc., its that Python and Ruby (as well as Java, C++, Obj-C, et. al) have a significant, inherent design flaw that prevent expression of real world with them. That flaw is class-based inheritance, which forces class-based thinking upon its users.

So stop beating yourself up with "one and only one way Python (orignally written by a Euro Socialist) or Ruby "on Hype" (originally written by a Japanese socialist) and find a language that does not involve class-based thinking. Plenty exist, e.g., Io, Forth, REBOL.

1:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

REBOL...yes, well, that's the sort of blinkered, Philistine, pig-ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage...

1:40 AM  
Anonymous Master of Tools said...

What do Ruby and Python have to do with socialism? They are dynamic languages that don't impose strict, 'straight jacket' inheritance.

Forth, IO, Rebol belong to a class of pre-OO languages which have been largely abandoned for a reason.

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7:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi all,

I am not a programmer. But I become when I had discovered python. Simply, clean syntax, well documented, lot of production/stable modules. I learned a lot from other's code, where such attributes counts.

But I agree with some ideas of author. I found that python frameworks struggling with a complicated setup!!, design and lack of stupid simple tutorials. Therefore you have to spend lot of time just to get into philosophy of the autors.
Lot of time I miss a marketing aproach: first map the needs of future developers and then design the framework.

You will rarely find production ready LAMP examples in python's frameworks. Therefore it is problem to find a hosting worldwide.

I am glad that some iniciative is taken to move forward standards e.g. DB API, WSGI ... etc.

Currently I am testing webpy/cheetah future shows if the choice is right.

4:37 AM  
Anonymous valdiic said...

Is it so hard to understand that Python is definately NOT a templating language? If you need templating, please, use templating language for that.
To ease your pain some subset of templating languages try to be similar to Python as much as possible. Use Cheetah, Kid or whatever you prefer to write templates in pythonic way.

6:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

if Rails is just to overweight for what you're doing I highly recommend you check out Camping. A full featured ruby web framework in under 4k of code.

http://camping.rubyforge.org/

http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/camping/

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