Saturday, December 03, 2005

Power vs Popularity

Well I didn't expect to jump right into a vigorous discussion about language, but I'll give it a stab. I came across the following article Why Ruby is an acceptable Lisp. As expected the Lisp guys jumped up and shouted "Ruby is NOT a Lisp" with their typical disdain for anything not Lisp. Then followed the expected obscure examples of what Lisp can do and why the Ruby version is *obviously* inferior.

Don't get me wrong, Lisp is by far my favorite language. I am completely sold that technically Lisp is much better than any other language out there, including Ruby. Despite Lisp's technical superiority it remains a small community while other languages flourish and prosper as they pillage features out of Lisp.

What interests me are a couple of things:
1 - Why is a language like Ruby taking off while Lisp continues to languish in relative obscurity?
2- What is the appropriate trade off between populariy and power?

First, why is Ruby flourishing instead of Lisp? To answer that we have to look at what is fueling Ruby's growth. Ruby On Rails seems to be the primary motivator, Ruby was around for years before Rails was born but it remained a very small community until Rails came along. It's interesting to note then the primary catalyst for Ruby's increase in popularity was a framework written in Ruby, and not the core syntax of Ruby itself. What initially attracted me to Ruby was definitely Rails and it's promised increase in productivity. Perhaps part of the problem Lisp has always had is that "you can do that in Lisp too". Many people can and do write similar frameworks to Rails in Lisp and other languages. While Rails brought me to Ruby it was the power, expressiveness and general clean feel of the language that kept me, instead of defecting back to Python when TurboGears was released.

Further I didn't stumble on to Rails, it came roaring onto the scene. I came across a bold, audacious claim that got posted to Slashdot. David Heinemeier Hansson made the in your face claim that you could improve your productivity by 10 times if you switched to Rails for your database development work. It wasn't just this one article either, Hansson was a wonderful and provacative evangalist for Rails and Curt Hibbs wrote several great introductory articles. Most programmers weren't sitting around going "I am so sick of Java, I need to find a better way to do this..maybe I'll try Ruby" Rather when Rails was released Hansson practically hit them upside the head with the superiority of Rails. Now I'm not claiming most Lispers aren't touting the superiority of their language (I'd wager they have that part down pat), instead I'm saying Lisp needs a better coordinated and more concerted marketing campaign and a product to sell to people beyond core language features. Additionally Lispers would do well to offer a warm and welcoming environment to newcomers.

Now to the second question, what is the proper trade of between popularity and power? I'm going to let you in on a little secret, when I first came to Ruby On Rails the framework wasn't that great. The idea behind it was fantastic, but the implementation was far from complete and it definitely lacked consistency. Of course this is to be expected, it was a very early release and I didn't expect it to be a polished completed framework. What it did have though was momentum. To me this is the key issue. When it comes to core language features you want to have the most powerful language you can get. However when it comes to frameworks and libraries, popularity definitely matters.

It's not so much that I mind writing certain features in Lisp, it's that I don't want to have to write those features at all. For an entrepreneur trying to get a product out the door it seems like a mistake to start in a position where you have to implement a major framework in order to be able to compete effectively. If you enjoy that type of thing, why the crap aren't you writing the full stack Lisp On Rails equivalent? Instead, Lisp has the same problem that Python did before Rails came out, it's not the lack of frameworks, it's the lack of a good integrated framework that is easy to setup and get running.

Something I have learned from books about positioning your product is that you can typically only occupy one place in the consumers mind. You must occupy a niche if you will. The best way to invade a fortified position is through a concentrated attack on a weak part, rather than a generalized attack at all points. If you can do that you will be successful at driving adoption. This advice seems to hold up to real world observation as well. How does this apply to programming languages? Let's see:

Fortran: scientific and mathematical programming
C: Operating System programming
C++: Object Oriented C
Java: Safer and more object oriented version of C++
C#: cheap knockoff of Java (sorry couldn't resist ;) )
Visual Basic: A Beginners Language
JavaScript: scripting language for the web
Php: dynamic web programming language
Ruby: (with Rails) powerful database backended website language
Lisp: AI?
Scheme: Teaching language

Of course this list may not be fully accurate, and I could've gone on much longer, but I think you get the point. Those are the positions those languages seem to take in most people's mind. If Lispers want to drive adoption, they need to build good complete frameworks and I suspect they really need to address the issue of positioning in the mind of the consumer. On the other hand, it's also possible that many Lisp programmers enjoy the position of martyr for a tragically misunderstood language.


Blogger Douglas said...

If Lisp is bound to AI, and AI never really "worked" (Amazon, Artificial Artificial Intelligence) that would support the perception that Lisp didn't work either.

Lisp needs a new name :-)

10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Switching from Java web frameworks to Ruby on Rails, for me, wasn't so much about DHH's ramblings (since I'd expect them to be inherently biased coming from the creator of RoR). Rather, it was the full commitment of renown Java gurus (Geary, Tate, etc) that caught my attention. Indeed, I often found, at least in the beginning, DHH's comments to borderline arrogance, which turned me off to RoR. But ultimately it was the testimony of the Java experts that swayed me.

1:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find each time I get interested in learning Lisp (time on my hand, inspiring article or whatever the driver), I always abandon the idea at the same point. When the tutorial suggests that I use Emacs. I fully understand that the IDE has to be Lisp-aware, but I just find the usability of the editor horribly outdated.
It so happens that I don't want to work with buffers or "open a directory, operate on its files", whatever that means. And I won't even get into those keyboard shortcuts.
I feel that the near-necessity of using Emacs is another major stumbling block on Lisp's road to popularity. Forcing such a difficult way to work upon the end users is the best way to drive them away.
After working with Eclipse (Java) I expect a lot from my IDE, and I think this is the situation most programmers are in, these days.
Which makes me think... I should check out if there is a plugin named Eclisp :-)

2:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Emacs isn't a necessity to code in Lisp, but if you're willing to pass up on the greatest editor (program?) ever developed, you can use one of the Commercial IDE's. The trial version of Allegro (at comes with an IDE, and will get you started. Then, when you want to develop real applications, you can either pay for an Allegro license, or get over yourself and spend some time learning Emacs. I do not mean to sound so blunt, but there is a reason that Emacs continues to be popular 30+ years after its creation, and there is a reason that serious developers and serious Lispers prefer it. Although I do not like vi's model, I spent about two months learning and using it before coming to that conclusion.

2:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's about economic and social factors. I have some writings about it here:

3:13 PM  
Blogger Cold Fire said...

Typically in all aspects of life something like this happens again and again.The pattern is like if you like something right away - you will start to hate it very soon.Think of Classical Music and (* something that you have grown to hate now *) ( I dont want to start a FLAME here ).Think of that song that just wont get off your head just the first time you heard it and after a week you cant stand it anymore.I am sure you can think of some women ( and men if you are gay/women ) who fit into the similar catogory.True love is powerful while Infatuation is popular.My general 2 cents on how to identify where True Love might happen vs What is just an infatuation is like this.Look at the people who are already into it ( I bet paul graham wouldnt have learned lisp if he didnt go to grad school and tried to do AI - which is why we are all sitting and talking about this now anyway ).

And what I find in common with all those people is a kind of "I dont care about anything - this is what I am going to stick with" They are moved by a certain internal beauty which makes them say that.That supports and powers them. Think about Mac users and users of "the other" operating system. Think about Ipod users and the creative people.Thats the mark of beauty. Once we learn to identify that the world would be a lot more fun place.At this point I would like to start a philosophical debate : It goes like this. Can we teach True Beauty to market itself ..? ( at all ).

Not only Lisp - True Beauty in general.What are the variables that we need to adjust so that this can happen.It did happen - Think IPod. Can we some how suck this knowledge into our internet-Gaya! And again like this article points out the variable to me appears to be simplifying ENTRY.How do you light firewood - you dont take a match and show it on the wood.Thats silly.You take some paper and light the paper - then put the paper on the wood ( perhaps you would like to add some volatile fluids to the wood also).

This processes of simplification of entry is very essential.If we didnt learn it we would have died out of cold many thouzands of years ago.Its just ironic that we have to relearn it again.We all want to enter into the ivory tower. We just need some wooden steps. When its not available - remember the last time you were touched by beauty - wouldnt you take a roap and sling it to the top and climb the tower even if your hands are bleeding or would you just walk back to your sucks life.Think Emacs ..Think Lisp.

Meanwhile Lispers seriously consider building some wooden steps - Ivory tower need not be a lonely place afterall.We would all like to come to the party on top of the tower and have fun !

3:52 PM  
Anonymous Nicolay77 said...

I do agree that emacs is the thing that hurts lisp the most.

A new more MS-Windows/OSX friendly editor, with sintax highligthing with different colors for different levels of parenthesis (someone told me MSOffice has this for VBA), without having to learn that many shortcuts and so on, is what the lisp community needs.

Even something like Edit-plus but slime-aware is a big win. You shouldn't need to type Alt-P to repeat the last line in the REPL, Modern keyboards have Arrow Keys, Use them!

The commercial editors are so 1980, that they hurt lisp too. One of them uses a combo-box for typing-history, and really, emacs is better for lisp editing than what they offer, in other words, after you have used modern IDE's, they really feel unpolished and unprofessional.

I believe that this is the first application that should be implemented in the new wxCL, A modern lisp editor. In fact, I should start writing it instead of rambing here.

8:59 PM  
Blogger b7j0c said...

this debate is like ska music - it comes back once a decade whether you want it to or not. lisp may not have the best array of libraries but it seems to have enough. same with ruby and python. if you want the full spectrum of libraries for literally any task you can generalize, you are really addressing CPAN and only CPAN, which means perl.

10:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Emacs is not what hurts lisp. You could use vim if you really wanted, or someone could write a Eclipse plugin, if they haven't already. Furthermore, as someone else mentioned, Franz has an IDE. Of course, Franz Lisp will cost you a fortune. And that brings us to one of the big problems: there isn't a truly complete Lisp available for free.

The other main problem is that the ANSI standard is in serious need of an update. ANSI Common Lisp has no libraries for sockets, http, xml, foreign function calls, threads, database access, GUI (debatable if it needs that)...what else am I missing that Java and Perl have in their huge, attractive libraries?

Lisp is also not easy to get started using. I've spent so much time messing around with different implementations, switching to a different one when I get an error trying to asdf-install a package. Ruby? Perl? Python? You just plug in and go.

Last night I was thinking about the book Practical Common Lisp, and I thought, instead of Common Lisp, there needs to be a Practical Lisp implementation. So many people right now want the power of Lisp and would use it if it was easy to get started and didn't have so many stumbling blocks in the way of productivity.

Oh well. I may end up going to Ruby, but I really wish it had Lisp-style incremental compilation and a cleaner syntax.

By the way, I'm really sorry to offend any Lisp geniuses that are hard at work on what is currently available in the way of free implementations and libraries. I'd like to be able to do what they do.

10:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't have a hard on for lisp like a lot of people seem to have. But I still want to learn it just to see what all the fuss is about. However there is one thing the consistently prevents me form learning it. THERE IS NO GOOD OPEN SOURCE IMPLEMENTATION OF LISP. ALSO THERE IS NO OPEN SOURCE COMMUNITY AROUND LISP. The smalltalkers have a very small community around squeak but at least they have one. Squeak will probably take off way before lisp just because the smalltalkers have taken the trouble to organize themselves and setup a few nice websites. It should also be noted that the smalltalkers have there own killer applications. Namely seaside and dabble.

Even a piddly langauage like Io by Steve Dekorte has both an open source implementation and an extremely small community. I can't believe a language like Io has a bigger open source community than a massive language like lisp. It is totally unbelievable.

Why don't the great lispers like Norvig, Graham, etc stop talking about how their language is so great and start a community going. Why don't these amazing programmers create an open source implementation of lisp.

11:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is an excellent open source Lisp: SBCL
And for the Lisp community, look at as well as

1:00 AM  
Blogger Beowulf said...

Steel Bank Common Lisp (SBCL) is primarily unix based as it is heavily based on CMUCL. While I don't mind working in the *nixes, the majority of the world still runs Windows. Perl/Python/Ruby have all realized this and their languages generally run just as well on either platform.

That being said you can get CLISP which is byte compiled and is available on all of the major platforms.

Even with clisp though I could never really get a good complete setup up and running (including web server, database access, etc)

1:10 AM  
Anonymous Rob Lally said...

I have to agree with the assertion that the lack of a complete open source Lisp is what is hurting it in terms of popularity.

I recently tried to work through the very excellent Practical Common Lisp by Peter Siebel. I'm a Windows user and there wasn't an Open Source Lisp implementation that I could use to run all the examples. I might have been able to run them individually by installing several different Lisps including a limited commercial implementation ... but I might not.

I gave up.

I don't mind there being commercial implementations that offer extra features like better IDEs, in fact that is a a good thing.

My personal favourite languages are Smalltalk and Ruby ( in that order ). Ruby is has a free implementation and there are several free Smalltalk implementations that I used to get up and running on. Now I use Dolphin Smalltalk a commercial product for my personal hacking, but if there hadn't been a solid open source version I would probably have given up.

There seem to be a huge number of Lisp implementations and even more Scheme implementations. Couldn't even some of these people work together to produce one solid, open source, cross platform implementation with a full library? If they doI reckon they would be on to a winner ... until then Lisp seems to be less and less relevant.

3:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think most "dead" or "dying" languages suffer from the same symptoms:

1. An aging community
2. Belligerant "wizard like" old dogs who will shut you down the moment you let a peep about any sort of improvement.
3. An un-necessary and elitist mindset which is completely uncalled for regardless of how smart you are.
4. An absurd and almost fetishistic obsession with certain features of the language.
5. A tendency to look down on the rest of the world, feeling secure in one's own high-position on a high pedestal (self constructed and mutually re-assured and re-enforced)
6. A petty, cheap ass mindset, (cheap ass in the sense that they don't want to share their "wisdom" with the world at large, but only with people who they think are at least as smart as them. This is mainly a "male" phenomenon (at least in Humans)
7. A tendency to obfuscate and complicate concepts and then claim "but its so simple" thereby implying that most of the world is inhabited by fucking morons.
8. A tendency to keep the language as inaccessible as possible so people will bow down to your highness. eventually this elitism kills the frikking language.

Please note that very few of these people have actually made any _money_ from their smartness (its not about money, ya i know, yada yada yada). It would seem that they spent most of their waking hours convincing other geeks how geeky they were. Its alpha male syndrome gone berzerk..

That's fine, but this mutual intellectual masturbation has a casualty: The Language itself.

I present to you the main culprits:


All of them _claim_ to be powerful and "oh so easy to learn"

You'll always find these old long in the tooth hackers who claim they can write an object oriented system in 30 lines of code (see C.L.F) which is fine. My question is, why the HELL aren't you using to your talents to actually create a killer app for the language you "so LOVE" ??

I believe that the issue could be dealt with better by industrial psychologists. To my un-trained eye, it would seem that the community is in the grips of a selfish group who want to maintain their "status" within the community and who have become comfortable with their roles within the "eco system". They feel threatened when there is any opportunity of making the language/favorite thing-a-majiggy accessible to the masses. A prospect which will threaten their "wizard" status.

Thats when you hear stuff like:

Its not MVC
It doesn't have a true stack!
I wrote a compiler in 27 bytes
It can't do macros
But does it have continuations?

I'm sorry, all your lithpers, forthers and smalltalkers, stop whining about how great your fave language is and what mis-understood martyrs you are, and produce a framework that the world can use.

You claim you are smart enough to do that, Well put your brain where your mouth is. And stop telling me about recursions and macros and create a beautiful app which will make common people's lives easier.


1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree, my anonymous friend. Programming is a means, not an end in itself. Refurbishing your algorithms aren't the purpose of programming. You need all the help that you can get, free or commercial, because programming is hard! Inviting people to the "hard side of the force" won't work, ever.

3:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lisp has been around for how long? Ruby has an implementation that runs on your favorite operating system and includes Networking and Threads. How long has Ruby been around? Do Lispers just opine about how great the language is, or do they use it for anything?

9:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ruby is basically a kind of specialized Lisp implementation. Minus some parentheses.

Lisp is not a language. It is a family of languages with very different designs and implementations. There are probably a few hundred implementations of Lisp. Some are very popular like AutoLisp, Scheme in education, EmacsLisp, ... You just need to remember that lots of Lisp code is not used for web applications but for other kinds of applications. Some Lisps are long forgotten.

Common Lisp is a language with very different implementations. Common Lisp was not designed to help people write web pages. I can be used for that, but that was not the initial purpose. It has been designed to have a common Lisp-like language for writing complex applications in areas like AI, CAD, operating systems, and so on. US military paid for the development of the standard. Examples for these programs are applications that schedule various operations on airports, check credit card transactions (American Express), o symbolic mathematics (like Macsyma or Axiom) or applictions with which you design turbines for aircrafts (like Icad).

So Common Lisp is really a different language, with a very different group of users. There is nothing like a focused group of users with similar needs. Some Common Lisp users do need large address spaces (because they have applications that work on millions of objects), some need excellent OpenGL interfacing, some are using CORBA, some need specialized AI programming facilities (rule-based systems, logic languages, neural nets, ...), some need good network libraries, ... and so on.

Comparing Common Lisp or Ruby is difficult, because the language purpose is very different. Popularity is also very different to measure. When Ruby is so popular, why are there about five companies actively selling Common Lisp implementations, while there is none for Ruby? There are areas where Common Lisp is popular, otherwise people would not buy it and pay lots of money for it. But you might not read about it in blogs. So popularity is relative and depends to which market you look.

From a perspective of a Lisp user, Ruby is a good thing. It gets lots of developers very near to the ideas of Lisp (functional programming, interactive development, reflection, ...). Java did that (Garbage Collections, Objects, ...), but Ruby is definitely more Lispy. If that trend continues, we will see more people using and understanding Lisp or Lisp-like languages.

At the same time people looking at Lisp (say at Common Lisp) they need to understand that a few things are different. Common Lisp is already there. It has its design phase mostly done (that was in the early 80s). Current users are not really wanting to change it. And it does not change much in fact. It is not like Perl where a very new version is in the works, or Python or Ruby. Languages which are 'younger' and still changing. Languages which are still under development and are at the same time adapting to the changing market. Common Lisp as a language doesn't do that. It does not change. It has been designed to be changed from within the language. And it is expected that the users of Common Lisp will change it via its built-in mechanisms to adapt it to their needs. It is a funny feeling, when your code from twenty years ago still runs mostly unchanged - on very different hardware and with much better speed. That is the advantage of a stable language (with built-in extension mechanisms). People need also to understand that Lisp is based on some old language design decisions. You have to learn these and overcome some initial hurdles, if you want to use Common Lisp. So, a will to accept some old fashioned naming or some unusual language mechanisms is needed, otherwise the language, its implementations and its usage will feel strange. A newer languages like Ruby simply looks and feels 'friendlier'. If you get past these initial hurdles, many things will start making sense. But getting past the hurdles is difficult. Especially since many knowledge about Lisp and using Lisp effectively is not available from books or articles. You either have to find it out yourselve, or be happy and get an introduction from knowlegeable people.

7:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lisp is not intended to be a scripting language as Ruby is. You can, but you can in C too..
Lisp is for constructing large, dynamic, fast and secure systems. You can use Ruby for that, but you can use Visual Basic too... I hope we agree that Visual Basic and Ruby are not as good ;) as Lisp in this area...
Lisp might be only for smart programmers. Yes, that *migh* be true. But this is only because smart solutions requires smart minds, and complicated problems might need complex languages.
You do not need Lisp for reading an MP3 ID3, but you are encouraged to use it for credit card transactions or advanced CAD design.
This is the reason because Lisp has not got good GUI or portability. Companies are usually using it for critical problems, not for putting your desktop full of colors or beautifull icons...

7:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just for having a little of fun... I'd like to know how good is doing Ruby, Perl, and ultimately Java in this aproaches, compared with Lisp:

• Animation & Graphics
• Artificial Intelligence
• BioInformatics
• B2B & E-Commerce
• Data Integ. & Mining
• Expert Systems
• Finance
• Intelligent Agents
• Knowledge Mgmt
• Mechanical CAD
• Modeling & Simulation
• Natural Lang. Proc.
• Optimization
• Research
• Risk Analysis
• Scheduling
• Telecom
• Web Authoring

8:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd have to agree with the folks that aren't impressed with the Emacs interface. That was where I gave up on Lisp as well.

I figure an interface is well designed if it seems obvious, if you don't have to fight it to figure out how it works. The best interface I've ever come across is MindManager X5. I reckon that's damn-near perfect. Emacs hardly inhabits the same universe.

Various posters in this thread and others have mentioned wanting to work on a problem, not fight a language/IDE/OS. Lisp might be powerful but I just felt I was wasting way too much time fighting Emacs. I've been learning computer languages, IDEs and applications for 16 years and my rule of thumb is that I should be able to take off running and be productive within a week. Emacs wasn't even close to that.

11:09 PM  
Blogger Daniel Barlow said...

I always feel that there's a certain amount of goalpost moving going on in these discussions

B: "Look at ${foo}Lisp"
A: "Oh. I meant on Windows"

Yeah, yeah, the world runs on Windows. But the open source community - or at least, the bits of it I've met - runs mostly on Unix and the Unix-clones. Sure, there's Windows ports of Perl and Python and so on, but they've always been the poor cousins when it comes to setting the development direction, and they (or at least Perl, I'm not that familiar with Python) came to prominence long before they burst out of their unix-only origins.

Half of all Windows users probably don't even have a C compiler installed, for goodness sake. It's hardly the obvious choice of platofrm for people who want to hack.

4:36 PM  
Blogger Connelly said...

Much of the Python open source community is directed towards Windows. For example, PIL, Numeric, pycrypto, pygame, wxPython, cgkit, PyOpenGL, Matplotlib, Twisted, and most other major libraries link to Windows installers that take roughly 3 clicks to install.

5:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to the people who are saying things like

" if I have to spend more than 2 minutes learning tool _X_, I don't want anything to do with it"

caveat: don't take this as a windows bash

This is a common complaint I hear from windows users coming to unix saying

why do I have to know how to use 10 commands
just to get a list of xyz from some file?

if this was an excel spreadsheet I could just click and sort, and be done with it.

the difference is:

- with excel, if you change the problem domain (e.g. tables of cells), all the domain specific knowledge goes away

(ever press control^F in internet explorer? it searches. what about in outlook? it forwards a mail message)

with the 10 unix commans (e.g. grep for example), you learn the command -once- and
you can use it for everything.

instead of learning to search in application x,y,z, you've learned to
search *all files*

a similar thing can be said for emacs...

once you know how to e.g. search the
list of installed emacs commands / keystrokes, you can do that for
all editing modes of emacs..

if you install some emacs lisp to handle
editing e.g. the next web scripting fad called Diamonds on Crack, you could learn to use / explore the editing mode in the
same way you did before elsewhere..

sometimes, the learning code pays off over time.. like learning how to poop in a toilet.

if you find yourself asking 'how long does this take to learn', before you quit,
ask 'how many times will I have to repeat
learning it in 20 different ways by avoiding learning the generic way'

in other words:

take a breath and don't be in such a rush
all the time .. you might still get more done.

that being said.. I think there's some
lisp plugin for eclipse.. or at least

give DrScheme/PLT a shot if you'd like a nice lisp-like-language editor (for scheme) ... even comes with a tutorial mode and so on..

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

The funny thing is that Bjarne Stroustrup positions C++ as a language that supports many programming styles/paradigms, not just one (OO). While C++ has it's weaknesses, that's what it's major selling point is to me. You can pick and choose whichever approach suits your problem best, unlike Java, which enforces OO until it comes out your ears.

The only sad thing is that backwards compatibility with C has crippled C++ in a few ways, though it has made C++ more popular than it would've been otherwise, I'm sure.

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